Sunday, September 22, 2013
Just Holden On...
Use the book Catcher in the Rye to track down places where Holden Caulfield shares his opinion on big items like religion, dating, girls, sex, education, phoniness, substances (alcohol, tobacco), family, etc. In your post, summarize Holden's opinion of ONE single topic, including a direct quote (with page number in parentheses), and a few lines about the degree to which you agree or disagree with his comments. The more specific you can be about Holden's view the better. Remember to reply to at least one other student's post, preferably on a different topic than the one you selected.
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“Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody.”(pg.214) This quote by Holden really shows that he does have an opinion on family and missing someone. It shows that he has his own feelings and that he really actually cares about people even if he talks about them being like phonies. I agree with this quote to a certain extent. I think that the more you tell people things that are important to you the closer you get to them. If you get close to them and you leave then you really start to miss them because they are a piece of you. I think that this is the reason why Holden will lie to people and tell them such bizarre things that are nowhere near being close to the truth. He just doesn’t want to get close to them so when they separate he isn’t as depressed.
ReplyDeleteI really like this quote because everyone has someone that they miss and they either don't talk about it or they do and it makes it worse, i agree completely.
DeleteI love this quote! It really shows that Holden is missing out on stuff kind of because Allie isn't alive. It's kind of sad. I agree with your reasoning as well. -Allison Rumptz
DeleteI think this quote was a perfect way to end the book! I love this quote! I defiantly agree with it too. It shows how sad he truly is.
DeleteI find this quote to reveal a lot of Holden's character as well, because it even shows a bit of why he can't invest in things easily (besides family) after the death of his brother, Allie. He is a sad person.
DeleteI love this quote! It's a great way to end the book. You can see how life and events have taken a dramatic turn for the worst on Holden's life even though we didn't get much of an insight of his parents which could be a reason why he is going slightly insane.
Delete"People always clap for the wrong things" (page 84). This says a lot more than Holden may have realized. People always like what they shouldn't. Whether that thing is harmful, dull, or something along those lines, the majority of people will like it. Greed has choked most of us - strangling our beings - yet many embrace it. Alcohol destroys brain cells and common sense, yet people have grown a liking, even an addiction, to it. People become attracted to jerks, leaving behind the kind. Many would rather spend their days doing bad things rather than go out and help someone. There are those dying on a daily basis, yet we would rather care about who won a football game or go drinking at a party. There are those whom have fallen into torment and suffering, and no one bats an eye. Instead, people clap for those who give out sufferings. People clap for those who can drink the most. People clap for those who hurt the guy the most during a game. People clap for those who disrespect another with a "good comeback." People clap for their demise, for their failure, for their ruin.
ReplyDeleteFor now, the sufferers continue to suffer, and those subject to torment will further experience more torment, while people turn a blind eye to the obvious. No one can see, because they are all preoccupied. They are all preoccupied clapping for the wrong things.
Couldn't agree more. We have become more worried about football games and scores than people and people feelings. We push ourselves to the top not curious of what we have done to others. But yet we clap for those who have reached the top. It's something I'll never understand.
DeleteI think that this is such a quote and reasoning you said behind it. I think that in this day and age everyone has lost there morals. I think that people are too worried about there status. I think people get too obsessed in the idea of rebellion. Losing everyones eternal happiness.
DeleteI really agree derek, i think that this concept has been present in society for a very very long time, and it is the kind of social norm that is extremely hard to break.
DeleteI really your analysis of this quote Derek! You couldn't have said it better. People are always wanting what they shouldn't and that excites them. I really like the way that you described likes and dislikes of people
Delete"At the end of the first act we went out with all the other jerks for a cigarette. What a deal that was. You never saw so many phonies in all your life, everybody smoking their ears off and talking about the play so that everybody could hear and know how sharp they were. Some dopey movie actor was standing near us, having a cigarette." (Page 126)
ReplyDeleteThis quote deals with Holden's definition of his stereotypical phony. To be honest he kind of has a point. At some point in our lives we have or will dress up, to go to fancy event, and try to impress people who don't care or fall into our trick. And the more and more I think about it isn't that apart of life especially in the work force. You have to impress people to work your way up the ladder. Maybe that's more in bigger city lifestyle. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.
Totally true. At some point we will all have to impress people we don't care about. And tell them lies such as, "nice to meet you". Why is our society like this? Why do we have to do this in order to be respected and liked? It's dumb.
DeleteI completely agree with this. I hate how when you go out to events you have to lie and pretend to be someone else because, for some reason, being yourself isn't good enough. It's a harsh world for sure.
DeleteLike what Maya said, our version of being "polite" in society is kind of phony because you have to act nice, even if that;s not how you really feel.
DeleteI personally hate when big events happen everyone tries to "out dress", or "out do" everyone else. For some people, dressing up is not what they like to do, yet they are sometimes forced to, in order to not look phony and/or to impress people that they do not care about. I think the world should let people be who they are, and not what others want them to be.
Delete"I asked her if she was out collecting money for charity and all. She said no.
ReplyDeleteShe said she couldn't get it in her suitcase when she was packing it and she was just carrying it. She had a pretty nice smile when she looked at you. She had a big nose, and she had on those glasses with sort of iron rims that aren't too attractive, but she had a helluva kind face. "I thought if you were taking up a collection," I told her, "I could make a small contribution. You could keep the money for when you do take up a collection."
"Oh, how very kind of you," she said, and the other one, her friend, looked over at
me. The other one was reading a little black book while she drank her coffee. It looked like a Bible, but it was too skinny. It was a Bible-type book, though. All the two of them were eating for breakfast was toast and coffee. That depressed me. I hate it if I'm eating bacon and eggs or something and somebody else is only eating toast and coffee."
(page 109)
I found this to be the most interesting part in the book when Holden momentarily befriends two nuns and gives them $10 even though they say they aren't doing donations. Holden has before expressed numerous times his distaste for organized religion, where in one instance he said that he thought about praying for Phoebe, but he remembered is distaste for organized religion. I don't think that this is an instance where you can say you agree with him or not, but a reflection on Holden himself, he may be changing himself, letting go of things that bothered him before, but unknowingly to Holden that he is doing it. Later on he goes on saying that he regretted giving the money to the nuns because he was strapped for cash for his date with Sally later on.
"That's all I'd do all day. I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all." (pg 173)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is when Phoebe asks Holden what he would want to do for the rest of his life. I think this quote is very intriguing because I think it shows that Holden does have a heart. I feel that it shows no matter how hypocritical and how hard of a defensive shell Holden puts on that he still has a heart like everyone else. I think that it just shows his heart is left in his childhood. Holden thinks kids are perfect. He doesn't ever see wrong in his childhood or Phoebe or Allie. I think that as much as Holden thinks he is mature in his mind that his heart isn't ready to grow up yet.
I like this quote, too. I like how it shows that he does know what is really important, which is people. He doesn't care much for school, and he talks bad about a lot of people, but he secretly cares.
DeleteThis is a good quote. I also think that Holden at this point in the book finally shows us that he has a heart and for me makes him more likable
Delete"Dear Mr. Spencer,That is all I know about the Egyptians. I can't seem to get very interested in them although your lectures are very interesting. It is all right with me if you flunk me though as I am flunking everything else except English anyway. Respectfully yours, Holden Caufield" (pg. 47)
ReplyDeleteHolden here is talking to Mr. Spencer about why/how he flunked all of his classes, except English. Holden really hates school, especially the teachers and all of the phony people. Towards the end of the novel, he realizes that he doesn't need an education, all he wants to do is disappear.
On the other hand, I really disagree with Holden. I think education, especially going on after high school is very important, he doesn't have a clue what he wants to do and is just kind of (barely) going through the motions of school. Therefore, it's the reason for him failing school.
-Allison Rumptz
pg. 12, not 47
Delete"It was one of the worst schools I ever went to. It was full of phonies." (Salinger 167).
ReplyDelete"Even the couple of nice teachers on the faculty, they were phonies, too." (Salinger 168).
I picked these two quotes to show how often Holden brings up phonies and how to show how much he hates phonies. In my opinion that's what he hates most in life. He can't stand people who act as anything but themselves. He thinks almost everyone is a phony. And, to some extent I agree with him. Every male I've heard him speak of he has called a phony at some point or another. Except for D.B. Although, he thinks he works with a bunch of phonies. Holden hates most things, but he can't stand phonies. Personally, I think he just uses the word phonies for people he doesn't like. He doesn't like fake people, he doesn't like anyone he's not related to. Except for Jane. She's not a phony to him, he loves her. I think Holden's aspect on life is interesting. He's very negative, yet is somewhat correct. There are a lot of phony people in this world. Why can't everyone just be genuine?
I like your thought on phonies maybe just being used as a word for people he doesn't like. Perhaps it could also be his alternative for moron.
DeleteI agree. Holden hates most people because most people are phonies. And the few people he seems to genuinely like are not phonies (in his mind at least)
DeleteI'm going to pick a pretty easy topic and talk about Holden's hatred of the movies. On page 2, he states, "If there's one thing I hate, it's the movies. Don't even mention them to me.". One thing about this quote is it's massive amounts of irony. Holden makes allusions to and imitates the movies all the time. This is odd for a boy who claims to hate the very existence of movies. Also, I don't get how someone can hate movies in general. I can understand not liking a particular movie of an actor, but to label all movies as bad is a little extreme. Personally, I love movies, so I may be biased, but there's something about movies that you just have to like, especially when it's a good movie. You find yourself wrapped up in and a part of the movie. I guess it's possible for Holden to hate them, but from his behavior, I think he's full of it.
ReplyDeleteI agree, how can you hate movies. Especially if your brother was a famous movie writer. Doesn't make sense.
DeleteIt is another hypocritical thing that Holden does throughout the book. And really how can someone hate all movies?
DeleteI agree. Movies are great. Just look at Monty Python's "The Holy Grail". Instant classic.
DeleteI completely agree Gegs, This approach is from a different angle then mine, but I can see you thought the same of Holden. Good Work!
DeleteIn chapter 18 Holden is talking to Sally on their date and he goes on a rant about how much he hates boys prep schools. One thing he mentions is how everyone is in cliques and how much he hates them.
ReplyDelete“Everybody sticks together in these dirty little goddam cliques. The guys that are on the basketball team stick together, the Catholics stick together, the goddam intellectuals stick together, the guys that play bridge stick together. Even the guys that belong to the goddam Book-of-the-Month club stick together.” (Salinger 131)
I don't agree with alot of things Holden says but this I can agree with. I'm pretty positive that every school has some sort of clique going on and if you think you don't you probably are not very observant. At our school most of us have had the same friends since middle school and maybe even elementary. We've never broken out of our little bubble and hung out with other people. I can agree with Holden that cliques are really stupid. But I don't agree just because you are in a clique that you are a phony. Some people are just more comfortable with the same thing and are not used to going out and meeting new people which is okay.
I totally agree with you saying that we have cliques in our school. Even if they're not super obvious, they're still there. Over time our friend groups do change, but usually not too drastically.
DeleteI agree with you when you say that there are cliques in our school. There are cliques everywhere you go, whether you go to school, you go to an office building, or even if you go out in public. We all stay in our comfort zone and we stick with what we know best and that would be the clique that we are in. Our friends can change a little bit, but for the most part we all stay with our little friend group.
Delete"That's the kind of red hair he had. God, he was a nice kid, though. He used to laugh so hard at something he thought of at the dinner table that he just about fell off his chair."(Salinger pg.38).
ReplyDeleteDuring this passage, Holden is talking about his brother Allie, who had passed away. He brings Allie up because he is using the baseball glove to write the composition. This is showing that family is very important to Holden. He doesn't want Allie to be forgotten about, so he keeps the glove as a reminder. It seems like a little thing, but Holden recalls countless memories from it.
Also Holden mentions Phoebe quite a few times. He wants to protect her, so no harm comes to her like it did to Allie. It's also why he is trying to protect her youth. So she doesn't grow up into the weird, perverted, adult world.
I do agree with Holden. Family is probably the most important thing in everybody's life. Throughout my house are three words. Live, Laugh, and Love. That might not seem like much but they are the words we used when my brother died.
" The trouble with girls is, if they like a boy, no matter how big of a bastard he is, they'll saw that he has an inferiority complex, and if they don't like him, no matter how nice a guy he is, or how big an inferiority complex he has, they'll say he's conceited." (page 136)
ReplyDeleteTo me it seems that Holden's opinion of who girls do and don't date and why is very cut and dry. Girls either do or don't like a guy and they base it off of one of two things: The guy is either conceited or he has an inferiority complex. I don't agree with either of those entirely. I believe that those we like, we are willing to put certain things behind them because as long as we are with them having a good time. We can't see the faults in people we like. I think this, in a way, shows Holden's immaturity because he thinks that girls have very simple thought; do or don't like. It also shows the immaturity of the girls he knows to do this because they are not mature enough to look for an overall picture of the guy. They are willing to put up with how he treats her if she thinks there is one thing she likes about him. That is something I will never understand. Girls that enjoy dating boys that mistreat them.
I really like this. I think you're right, that it does show how immature he is, and that people do look past other's faults if we like them well enough. We just get used to them.
DeleteNow, for a guy's input. As you said, it's not so cut and dry. Girls DO make slightly more informed choices than just liking guys for no particular reason. However, one of the underlying points of Holden's minor tirade is that people can be extremely shallow, especially when it comes to relationships. In this, I agree 100%, since if it WERE'NT true, I'd probably have a girlfriend by now.
Delete"I stood up when I ordered them [Scotch and sodas] so they could see how tall I was and all and not think I was a...minor." (Salinger 142).
ReplyDeleteThis quote demonstrates Holden's opinion on not just alcohol, but tobacco/cigarette use as well. It is rare to find a time when Holden doesn't have a cigarette in his mouth or in his hand. He uses cigarettes on a regular basis, but also drinks alcohol when he can convince the waiters he's of age. His action of standing up and making his gray hair visible when he orders a drink shows us that he's willing to go out of his way to do something while knowing that it is illegal, and at the same not thinking it is inherently wrong. This also proves that he is okay with deceiving people, and trying to be someone he's not. This is ironic because Holden is always obsessing over phonies and people who aren't portraying themselves for who they truly are, yet he turns around and is dishonest (both verbally and physically) to people's faces.
I think that the fact that he is being a little phony is really ironic. He goes out of his way to lie and deceive others all the time.
DeleteMeghan Leete
I think it's funny how he's always thinking he can get away with whatever. Like the alcohol. He knows what he's doing is a phony think to do and it's very hypocritical.
DeleteHolden is also very hypocritical because during the intermission of the play "the Lunts" he accuses everyone smoking and drinking all phonies and that it was such a typical phony thing to do. Yet he smokes and drinks all the time.
DeleteGreat quote and a great point made. I completely agree with you. I find Holden to be quite a hypocrite because of his actions, lying about his age on a regular basis just to get drinks, but still obsessing and ridiculing the phonies around him.
DeleteVery true. Holden shows many examples of being a hypocrite in the book especially when he is judging other people.
Delete"Catholics are always trying to find out if you're Catholic," (Salinger 112). This part comes up when Holden is glad the nuns didn't ask him if he was Catholic because it would have spoiled the conversation. He isn't suggesting his dislike of Catholicism, just basically saying he's not too fond of his stereotype of a Catholic that is nosy. This isn't too relevant in our day and age, seeing as, "Hey are you Catholic?" doesn't come up super frequently in a conversation.
ReplyDelete"There isn't a night club in the world you can sit in for a long time unless you can at least buy some liquor and get drunk. Or unless you're with some girl that really knocks you out." (Pg. 76)
ReplyDeleteIn this quote, this early on we see how Holden can't have fun unless it involves alcohol or women. Even with those two things we even see more aggressive depression out of him. He was at some of his lowest points for example in the Lavender room and at the Wicker Bar with Carl Luce. So it is contradicting to the reader because Holden talks up alcohol like it is the way to have fun but in Holden's case all it has done has made him more depressed and got him in some bad situations.
Real talk Bpeel. I too noticed Holden's alcohol consumption as a way to fix his sadness and problems, which it doesn't. The better thing Holden should have done was go get some mental help and then reevaluate his phony life.
DeleteI don't know why Holden does anything. He insists on getting drinks with everyone, but he always just ends up annoyed. And he will literally spend an entire day wasting his money on things that he knows he hates. If he hates everything and everyone, I don't see why he doesn't spend more time by himself.
Delete“You never know whether they really want to stop, or whether they’re just scared as hell, or whether they’re just telling you to stop so that if you do go through with it, the blame’ll be on you, not them.” (Page 92) Holden’s opinion about sex is sort of unknown. He has never done it before, but he portrays himself as if he has done it many times. I think, in a way, he wants to wait for the right girl to come along. I know it doesn’t say that in the book, but if you think about it, why would he still be a virgin if he didn’t care. I don’t think Holden has a good idea about sex, he knows that grown-ups do it so maybe he is waiting as along as he can so he, in a way, still stays a child. I agree with his statement. Whether it’s sex you’re talking about or just liking someone, I agree with the statement. You can never tell if someone truly likes you. You can hear rumors that they do, but you never surely know until you just go up to them and ask them. It can also be related to tickle fights. When the person your tickling tells you to stop, you never know if they truly want you to stop or if they are just saying that.
ReplyDeleteHolden is very vague about his opinion but clearly shows that when he has Sunny over, he is not ready for sex. I totally agree, you never know anything unless you ask and you may have to take the first step.
Delete" 'It's this course where each boy has to make a speech. You know. Spontaneous and all. And if the boy digresses at all, you're supposed to yell 'Digression!' at him as fast as you can. It just about drove me crazy. I got an F in it.' " (pg 183).
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me think about Holden's view on education. He is angry about the way the teacher is teaching the class because sometimes it is more interesting to not stay on point. However, the point of the class was not about whether Holden was interested or not, but rather about how to make a proper speech. The teacher was trying to get the point across to all the students that digressing is bad. To do that, he made digressing a scary thing so that later students could self-edit there speeches for digressions. Holden just wanted to listen to something interesting and was not concerned with what he was supposed to be learning from the class.
Meghan Leete
I think you are right, this really sums up his whole view on education and life. He only cares about something if it interests him, if he doesn't agree with it,it is phony.
Delete"Oh, I feel some concern for my future, all right. Sure. Sure, I do." I thought about it for a minute. "But not too much, I guess. Not too much, I guess." (page 64)
ReplyDeleteHolden said this when he was talking to Spencer about getting kicked out of Pency Prep School. This quote shows how much Holden doesn't really care about education, and that being kicked out doesn't really concern him. Most kids would be scared and start working their butts off in order to stay in, but Holden straight up says he doesn't care about his future that much. This is also evident by him saying he just wanted to run away and become a deaf- mute and live in a cabin near the woods out west- if he did care he would be finding a new school. It is pretty clear throughout the book that Holden does not care about his education.
"I'm sorry I told so many people about it. About all I know is, I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even old Stradlater and Ackley, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice. It's funny. Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody." - 214
ReplyDeleteThis quote is the quote in the book I relate to the most, because it deals with one of my foremost areas of thought: nostalgia. Sure, when you get older, you'll miss all the good times, but you'll also miss the average stuff. That's nostalgia. It's not really missing something good, it's more lamenting the changes. Holden doesn't really know it, but he's experiencing some extreme nostalgia. He wasn't super fond of his peers at Pencey, but he misses their constant presence. He didn't know Maurice that long, but it still takes him back to his childhood. When you change schools, you start to miss the teachers and the kids that went somewhere else. Even the ones you didn't know by name. Even those guys that you saw in the hallway. If you miss those guys, it means you're growing up too fast.
When I read this quote I was thinking the exact same thing about the nostalgia. He wants things to stay the same but at the same time wants things to be different. Holden IS a complex character.
Delete"Its's everything. I hate living in New York and all. Taxicabs, and Madison Avenue buses, with the drivers and all always yelling at you to get out at the rear door, and..." (Page 130).
ReplyDeleteHolden's got some serious problems. Anything he comes across, he immediately finds something he doesn't like and starts railing on it. He can't stand the present, and is almost always talking about something that had happened or that he hopes will happen. Like Jack said, he is suffering from extreme nostalgia. This quote is from his date with Sally, and begins to complain about everything. From her voice, the way she talks, to cars and how so many people are worried about their gas mileage.
"She bought me the wrong kind of skates-I wanted racing skates and she bought hockey-but it made me sad anyway. Almost every time somebody gives me a present, it ends up making me sad." (page 52).
ReplyDeleteThis show how much Holden appreciates things in life. He doesn't think of that it is the thought that counts. He thinks about how much he wanted the other thing. Even though he seems pretty unselfish, he is very selfish. Another example would be calling everyone to see if they want to hang out and not bothering to see what time it is or if they have other plans going on. I totally disagree with Holden's opinion with this. Sure at times you need to be selfish for the better but it's not always about you. You impact a ton of people from one event. As the saying goes the world doesn't revolve around you. You should be living your life but yet be humble about choices.
I strongly agree with Karley on this. Holden was always looking at the negative things in life when there was alot of great things around him. It bothered me that he was never thankful for the things he did have in life.
DeleteI also agree with this. Holden has this thought that all people are phonies and they don't care about other people, and he is completely taking the good things he is given for granted.
DeleteWhen Holden met Sally for a date to a play, he felt like "marrying her the minute he saw her" (page 124). Then after the date Holden claimed that he hated Sally. " I sort of hated old Sally by the time we got in the cab, after listening to that phoney Andover bastard for about ten hours." (page 128). I disagree on how Holden thinks of women on the first date. First of all, you cannot be in love with a girl so much by just seeing her that you want to marry her. I do not believe in love at first sight necessarily; but, I do believe that you can have some sort of attraction that could turn into love. I also disagree that you cannot have bitter hate for a person just because they were talking to another person having a casual conversation. It bothers me that Holden changes his opinion really quickly and he always contradicts his own opinion. He goes from having passionate love for her to having passionate hate for her just within one night. I believe that this was not true love. It seems to me that Holden was just trying to look for that true love but he never got it which sets the mood that he is always depressed and sad.
ReplyDelete“People never notice anything.” (pg 9) and “People are always ruining things for you.” (pg 45) are two examples of quotes that show how little faith Holden has in society. He expresses the fact that all people are phonies constantly. I strongly disagree with his statements on these pages. Holden already has in his mind what he thinks of people, and once in that mindset, it is hard to see the good in people. When someone does something good compared to someone doing something bad, the bad gets more attention. Since he already thinks all people are phonies, he also thinks that people are always ruining things for him. He thinks that everyone is out to get him. There are a lot of good people out there, but Holden only takes time to notice the people who aren't so good. I think that people do notice things, and that people can a lot of times make things better for you. Holden just has a whole different outlook that leads him to believe that every human being is a phony.
ReplyDelete"I get very happy when I think about [the trips to the Museum of Natural History]...The only thing that would be different would be you, (Salinger 120). This quote about Holden reminiscing his trips to the Museum of Natural History describes his opinion on change. Holden hates change and seems to think change is bad. Generally, Holden seems to hold onto the past, onto childhood, and he doesn't like change or growing up. The museum makes Holden happy because nothing changes except the people.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, some change is good and some change is bad. Growing up is a part of life, and as you get older, you have more responsibilities, more insight into the world, and in a sense, less innocence. Ignorance isn't always bliss. While some changes aren't always for the best, there are a lot of changes in the world that have made societies better (for example, Civil Rights). Holden's view of "change is bad" is a closed-minded way of thinking with which I disagree. I believe that you should have an open mind, but also be smart about the changes going on around you.
I agree! Although I really hate change for some reason. Because usually that means I have to change something I'm doing and that's usually annoying.
Delete"He was the kind of phony that have to give themselves room to answer somebody's question." (page 127) Throughout the book, Holden is constantly labeling people or their actions as phony."That killed me. Then he and old Sally started talking about a lot of people they both knew. It was the phoniest conversation you ever heard in your life." (page 127) Holden is very judgmental and his favorite thing (besides profanity) is calling out all the phonies in the world. He could probably spot one from a mile away, but only because he thinks that practically everyone is a phony. I strongly disagree with Holdens view on life. I think that if you go through life judging people and being all negative, then you'll never be happy. I'd rather accept people the way they are because there are a lot of people that can impact your life or that you could impact theirs. You'd just be closing a door to a great opportunity.
ReplyDelete"How the hell old are you, anyways? Why ain'tcha home in bed?" (Salinger 83)
ReplyDeleteThis is when the cab driver, Horwitz, asks him why he is up and why is he going to a bar. He doesn't think Holden is old enough to drink. The immaturity of Holden asking about the ducks is evidence to the cab driver that he must not be that old. Holden is always trying to pull someone's leg and trick them into believing he is older than he actually is. Holden thinks because he is tall and has grey hair that he can get away with buying drinks, but if you don't act the age you think you look it just won't work. I would really like to know what Salinger envisioned Holden to look like and see if his appearance matches the age he thinks he can get away with.
"Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules."
ReplyDelete"Yes,sir. I know it is. I know it."
Game my ass, some game. If you get on the side where all the hot-shots are, then it's a game, all right- I'll admit that. But if you get on the other side, where there aren't any hot-shots, then what's a game about it? Nothing. No game.
I had chosen this quote because it shows how Holden doesn't really care about school, he just wants to be free and wants to be around the hot shots(popular kids). I don't have anything that I agree with the response but I totally agree with the quote about how if you want life to go right, follow the rules. But then I also agree to only follow "some parts" of the rules for life. I don't agree with his response about how he doesn't care about school and how he brings back the topic of lying, and how its sounds like he can handle his future his way.
pg. 8
Delete"Dear Mr. Spencer [he read out loud]. That is all I know about the Egyptians. I can't seem to get very interested in them although you lectures are very interesting. It is alright with me if you flunk me though as I am flunking everything else except English anyway.
ReplyDeleteRespectfully yours, Holden Caulfield." (pg. 12)
This quote, to me, showed me that Holden somewhat cares about education. He cares enough to try the essay, but doesn't care enough to keep his grades high enough to stay in school. That's also shown by his previous expulsions from the other schools. But, this note he writes to Mr. Spencer shows he has some compassion. He respects this teacher, and by writing this note, it shows he cares about his feelings and wants to let him know it's okay to fail him. Holden wants to keep Mr. Spencer from worrying about him.
"I thought of maybe hanging up if my parents answered, but that wouldn't've worked, either. They'd know it was me.My mother always knows it's me. She's psychic. But I certainly wouldn't have minded shooting the crap with old Phoebe for a while." (pg. 67)This quote shows that Holdan DOES care about his sister, but not enough to risk having a conversation with his parents. He probably doesn't want to break the bad news that he had been expelled again. I kind of agree with him; I really don't get along with my parents that well, and I try to avoid talking to them if I don't have to. But siblings are different for some reason.
ReplyDelete"Certain things, they should stay the way they are. You ought to be able to stick them in one of those big glass cases and just leave them alone." (Salinger 119)
ReplyDeleteTo me, this is a huge insight to Holden's character. Here, he is reflecting on how, at the museum, only the people change. This is something that both scares him and saddens him. Holden Caulfield finds adulthood to be everything phony and sinful, and he desperately wants to preserve his little sister's, Pheobe's, childhood-- and thus innocence. The tranquility and happiness of a child is something that makes Holden happy. He preserves his brother, Allie, at the young age in his mind. For some reason, this desire and love for the purity of youth doesn't extend to himself. Holden is trying to run headlong into adulthood, with bringing a prostitute to his room, and trying to buy alcohol. It's as though he believes he doesn't belong in the ignorance of childhood any longer, after carrying the weight of Allie's death and becoming disillusioned with the world so he's trying to take what he thinks of a steps into the adult world. Yet, Holden can't escape the trappings of his age, what with his curiosity with where the ducks go in the winter, his inability to go through with immoral adult behaviors, and his immature wish to become a hermit who never interacts with anyone. It eases my sadness with his apathetic condition to know his innocence isn't completely lost.
Totally agree Tirzah! I agree that he's trying too hard to grow up but still carries certain characteristics of childhood along with him.
DeleteThis is a fascinating insight. Holden would like to think it's such a simple matter to keep innocence protected despite giving in to the temptations of adulthood constantly.
Delete"Its's everything. I hate living in New York and all. Taxicabs, and Madison Avenue buses, with the drivers and all always yelling at you to get out at the rear door, and..." (Page 130).
ReplyDeleteHolden is one of the most negative characters I have come across in a book. He always finds something to gripe about even when it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. He can never seem to find the happy medium where he really just enjoys life. Holden's also type of person who can only slightly enjoy something for very short increments before that certain thing, whatever that may be, starts to really grind his gears. Just like this quote from the date with Sally, he's on a nice date and sally seems like a fun girl. After a while though Holden starts to get annoyed with her just like a whiny younger sibling and evens the date on a not so positive note by calling her "a real pain in the ass." He needs to take a major chill pill.
"Well-take me to the Edmont then" "Would you care to stop on the way and join me for a cocktail? On me. I'm loaded." P60
ReplyDeleteThis quote says a lot about Holdens maturity level, both how he sees himself and how he actually is. Holden sees himself as an adult, and by offering to buy people drinks throughout the novel he feels like he is doing adult things. Holden also is a habitual ciggarette smoker and I think he likes doing these "adult" things because he wants to be an adult and be treated as such. In actuality most people can see through Holdens disguise, and he is generally still treated like the kid that he is. This I think reallys irritates Holden and he continues to act out because of it.
I have to agree. Holden wishes he would have the amount of respect adults do, so he tries to act like one to gain it.
DeleteAgreed! It's almost like a metaphor, of how he covers himself up but no matter what he does, he's still just a kid.
Delete“I'm the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life. It's awful. If I'm on my way to the store to buy a magazine, even, and somebody asks me where I'm going, I'm liable to say I'm going to the opera. It's terrible.” (Pg 16)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really sums up Holden. He hates phonies, but he is a pathological liar. He can't just tell people the truth about who he is. I think a lot of his issues stem from the death of Allie. He doesn't consider himself a phony even though he is, all of it is ironic. And sad. He might just get mad at the phoniness of other people, to ignore the fact he is aware of how big a phony he is.
Nice quote! Our views on Holden are the same, that he lies and lies and yet he's the most phoniest person of them all.
Delete"I'M THE MOST terrific liar you ever saw in your life" (Page 16).
ReplyDeleteHolden says this about himself and I totally agree with this. He lies all the time to his friends, family, or just anybody. He lies about his age to get drinks. He lied to Ernest Morrow's mother about his name and his fake tumor. He lies all the time and is VERY good at it. But whats funny to me is that he's always saying how a lot of people he knows and meets are phony, and lies about who they really are. And yet he's the most phony of them all. He's ALWAYS lying about who he is. Changing his name so he doesn't have to tell people his life history, lying about his age to get drinks, or pretending to be another person. Holden is very phony.
I also thought Holden to be a great liar! It is odd that he states this in the book, because not soon after he goes on about how he hates phonies. The whole book is a lie, really, coming from Holden's perspective. It's sad really.
Delete“Just because somebody's dead, you don't just stop liking them-especially if they were about a thousand times nicer than the people you know that're alive and all.”
ReplyDelete(pg. 171)
Allie's death impacts Holden the most in my opinion because Holden had a special relationship with his brother. I couldn't imagine if I ever lost one of my brothers. Allie was Holden's best friend. They were always there for one another. Holden will never forget his brother and how he impacted his life. I have to agree with this quote. When someone dear to you passes away you never forget about them, especially if they had an enormous impact on you. You tend to treasure the memories in which you had been with them.
I agree with what you are saying about Holden losing his brother, Allie. Losing someone is hard and the way Holden deals with it is better for him.
DeleteI agree with you, Allie really means a lot to Holden. I think the only people Holden thinks aren't phonies are Allie and Phoebe. I wonder if Allie would mean the same to him if he was older instead of younger.
Delete"Thats why I was glad they didn't ask me if I was Catholic. It would've spoiled the conversation." (pg 113) This was said after he talked to the nuns at a breakfast bar in the Grand Central Station. Holden is trying to tell us that he doesnt like it a whole lot when people are overly religious and in general doe not like Catholics. Throughout the book Holden never says much positive about God or religion at all. he just believes we were just sort of put here.
ReplyDeleteOn page 2, Holden says, "If there's anything I hate, it's movies. Don't even mention them to me." He thinks movies are some of the phoniest things, with the most garbage writing. He even calls his brother, D.B., a 'prostitute' for selling his talented writing skills to Hollywood. (also pg 2) He also said this about a woman in the movies beside him, after witnessing her sob in the 'phoniest parts': "You take someone who cries their eyes out in a movie, and nine times out of ten they're mean bastards at heart. I'm not kidding." He basically hates everything associated with movies, except on rare occasion when he see's a movie which isn't 'too phony'. Personally, I love movies. I love the stories and that you can step inside them and feel what the characters are feeling... maybe that's what Holden thought was phony- that for a minute, you feel like someone else. I think if someones emotions are affected so much by a film that it moves them to tears, the viewer can relate with the character, which isn't phony at all. I disagree with Holden completely about movies, but can see his point of view.
ReplyDeleteI agree about how he thinks everything is phony, I actually don't like they way he calls something, the weirdest way, i don't like the way he thinks that movies are phony and pointless.
DeleteWhile he doesn't dwell on it too much, Holden's views on religion do peek out at a few points throughout the story. As could be imagined by his words and actions, he is an atheist and proclaims himself so, but does express his feelings and doubts towards the Church: "In the first place, I'm sort of an atheist. I like Jesus and all, but I don't care too much for most of the other stuff in the Bible. Take the Disciples for instance. They annoy the hell out of me, if you want to know the truth. They were all right after Jesus was dead and all, but while He was alive, they were about as much use to Him as a hole in the head. All they did was keep letting Him down" (99). It's clear that Holden doesn't quite have a good grasp on religion, which is understandable considering his clear lack of maturity. He also at one point mentions that his parents are of different religions, which could also cause some confusion. Although he doesn't seem too opposed to religion, he simply doesn't have the patience or tolerance to pursue it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. He seems very confused with what he believes. I think he needs to decide what his beliefs are.
DeleteWell said. Holden's life is such a mess right now and I don't think he has really even considered having a religion.
Delete"In my mind, I'm probably the biggest sex maniac you ever saw." (pg 62)
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, this is just another classic example of Holden trying to make himself seem older than he really is. He always has some sort of example to share with readers about how mature he is. He is tall for his age, so he thinks that he looks older and can buy drinks. The silvery look he has to his hair also leads him to believe that he looks older, again, to buy drinks. On the surface, Holden is "mature" and grown up, but when you look deeper, he is still a child. He calls himself a sex maniac, but is still a virgin. He horses around but never gives her the time. He blames is on the girl, saying that she was too nervous, or that it wasn't the right time or place. I feel however, that he is afraid. That he's not as grown up and mature as he tells everyone that he is. When Holden brought the prostitute up to his room, he kept making excuses on why he could have sex with her. Right after he had invited her to his room he felt he was old enough, mature enough, and sexy enough. But, when the time came that Sunny arrived, he was afraid. He couldn't do it.
I agree with your thoughts. I don't understand why Holden and many others cannot own up to their actions. I am sure if we heard the both sides of the story we would hear much different reactions... Also I think Holden changes his tone based on his audience and that is why he when talking to the reader says he is a "sex maniac".
DeleteI like this a lot and never really thought about it that much but you are correct. Holden is just a kid trying to pass as a grown up and it's eating him inside and out.
Delete"He makes them very strong, too, you could tell. He may get to be an alcoholic if he doesn't watch his step." pg. 186.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden said this, I was very intrigued. He made it sound like he is looking down upon Mr. Antolini for drinking. Almost everywhere Holden goes he is always asking for a scotch and soda. He only gets it about half of the time. Therefore, I believe that Holden is a phony himself. He makes Mr. Antolin look like a bad guy for drinking, when he is an adult and seems to know how to control himself. While Holden drinks a lot and isn't very responsible about it. For example, when he calls Sally Hayes drunk and yells at her. That shows he isn't in control of himself. Holden is always calling everyone else a phony, which just makes him the biggest phony of them all. That really shows that he is not that mature at all. I think that Holden really needs to grow up and realize how he is a phony himself and he needs to stop being so judgmental of everyone.
I agree with you with the fact that Holden has no room to talk. Mr. Antolini is old enough to drink and can do that kind of stuff, where as Holden is not. So I believe that Holden shouldn't be judging Mr. Antolini at that time.
Delete"I stood up when I ordered them so they could see how tall I was and all and not think I was a...minor." (Salinger 142).
ReplyDeleteIn this quote Holden is talking about ordering a scotch and soda. Throughout the book there were a lot of times where he is not given a drink because he is a minor, but there were definitely plenty of times were Holden got really drunk. I found myself finding it so hard to believe that Holden is only 16 and he is sitting at the bar at nights, almost always smoking a cigarette, and going on with girls. You can tell that Holden has a very strong liking for drinking and smoking and doesn't seem to care about his age. I don't know if back then a lot of underage teens went out like Holden did or if that was just his way of forgetting everything that was going on in his life. Clearly I disagree with the fact that Holden is always smoking cigarettes and going out to bars at that age.
"I can't always pray when I feel like it. In the first place, I'm sort of an atheist. I like Jesus and all, but I don't care too much for most of the other stuff in the Bible." (pg. 99)
ReplyDeleteWhen I first read this, I thought it was strange how one could like Jesus, but be an atheist at the same time. While I read the rest of the book, I didn't think to much of it. But after finishing it, and using this quote as an example, I thought more about what he might mean. He says he likes Jesus, not that he believes in him. That also got me thinking. Could an atheist like parts of the bible, even if they don;t believe in them. I came to the conclusion that yes, they could. Maybe to them it's like reading a fiction book. You can have favorite parts and parts you don't care for. Just like people that do believe in God, I'm sure there are parts in the bible they don't like, but they still choose to believe it.
I think this is an interesting quote because it is pretty different from what most people think. I agree with Alyssa in the fact that some people may choose things to believe and not to believe within their own religion.
Delete"The girls I like the best are the ones I never feel much like kidding. Sometimes I think they'd like it if you kidded them--in fact I know they would"
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden really cares for a girl (like Jane) he is most truthful. He acts like the person he really is and doesn't lie. He is serious because he values women like that. The girls want the guys to BS and flirt but Holden doesn't want to just be teased.
I agree with that statement for the most part. When I find a girl that I could see in a future relationship with I try to be as true to myself as I can. Sure I would like to try flirting and all with them but most of the time it doesn't work out and I give up. When I do find a girl I really care about I act much more serious and do not try to shoot the bull at all. I guess it's because I care too much to say something wrong but I can rely on the truth because it can't change. I don't lie to other girls I don't care as much about (I hate lying no matter what the circumstances), I am just less serious. I would like to be less serious at times with girls I really do care for but I struggle to.
“Everybody sticks together in these dirty little goddam cliques. The guys that are on the basketball team stick together, the Catholics stick together, the goddam intellectuals stick together, the guys that play bridge stick together. Even the guys that belong to the goddam Book-of-the-Month club stick together.” (Salinger 131).
ReplyDeleteI used this quote because it shows how Holden feels about the world, obviously, but it also is 100% true of teenagers in general today. Every school, workplace, daycare, dance hall, playground, sports team, etc. has this going on. Cliques are a thing from a young age. Your parents have a clique, then you go off to daycare and make friends, forming a group of friends - or a clique - then you go to school and start all over. This is also true of the work place. Cliques never go away.
I would agree with Holden, that cliques, simply put, suck. How are you supposed to grow up and figure yourself out if you are always with the same set of people? What if you are with a set of people that you really don't agree with or care for? You can't leave that "clique" and you stay in it... does that make you a phony? Holden thinks it does.
Madisen Semmens
" It's full of phonies, and all you do is study so that you can learn enough to be smart enough to be able to buy a goddam Cadillac someday, and you have to keep making believe you give a damn if the football team loses, and all you do is talk about girls and liquor and sex all day..." (pg 131)
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because to me it sums up who Holden is as a person. At this point he is on a date with Sally ranting about phonies and his usual pepeevs. But what he doesn't understand is that everything he's listed in this quote is everything he is. He is always talking about liquor, sex, and girls. It's brought up in every conversation he holds. I know this is suppose to be about one topic, but I think the one topic that is shown here is his own phoniness. In this quote his opinion is that all Pencey Prep boys are the same. Little does he realize he is the same as all of them. I think Holden believes that he is perfect and is none of the things that listed to Sally.
"One of the biggest reasons I left Elkton Hills was because I was surrounded by phonies" (pg 13). This quote basically sums up Holden's entire world view. He believes that every human being (except possibly children) is phony. He feels cheated that no one else sees it but him (or so he believes). I sort of agree with the quote in the aspect that, yes people in Elkton probably were phony. In my opinion everyone is at least a little phony (you have to be to survive in society). For example if someone asks you if you think they're pretty (and they are simply not) you aren't going to say "no, in fact I think you're appallingly hideous" what you are going to say is "why of course you are!". And you'd be lying. However I also disagree with the quote that that is the reason that Holden left Elkton. He thinks people everywhere are phony so it's not just Elkton. He obviously got kicked out of there for poor grades and is just using "they were phony" as an excuse (something I think Holden does quite often). Throughout the book Holden's mad and sad at the lying and deceit he now sees in people. It's an unfortunate right of passage that every kid has to go through, Holden just took the realization a little bit harder than most people.
ReplyDelete"He may get to be an alcoholic if he doesn't watch his step." (p.186) Holden is talking about his old school teacher Mr. Antolini. But the twist is that this isn't how he really feels about alcohol. Despite being 16 and under age Holden repeatedly drinks and tries to buy alcohol. It's pretty much every night. This reflects the hypocritical side of Holden that I have come to see. He hates phonies with a passion, but I really think he is one.
ReplyDeleteI agree Tanner, Holden is a phony. The situation is quite ironic.
Delete"'That isn't nice. If she was decent enough to let you get sexy with her all the time, you at least shouldn't talk about her like that.'"(pg. 145)
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows a side of Holden that he tries to cover up, one that is respectful to women. He doesn't like people talking poorly about girls, even when he says something he takes it back. He may act like he is this rebel but he still has under lying principles which make him attractive to the reader. If he was just this smoking, drinking, psycho boy then the story wouldn't be as interesting. But Holden instead has morals just like everyone else.
I agree, Holden does seem to have morals that hes trying to cover up like wanting to protect little kids innocence.
Delete"Grand. If there is one word I hate, its grand. It's so phony." (pg 106) This quote, from Holden, is telling us, again, that Holden hates phoniness. He just can pick out things and say they are phony. How does he know what phony is and why is the word, grand, one of them? Holden is such a strange character and this quote definitely shows it. Holden thinks that phonies are everywhere and he doesn't like them because they are fake. He doesn't like people because no one seems to be real to him. Yet, when he was on the train home he used 2 different names so he was also a phony. He needs to learn that you can't hate something that you are yourself.
ReplyDeletei agree with you that holden does pick out things to call phony!
Delete"A lot of schools were home for vacation already, and there were about a million girls sitting and standing around waiting for their dates to show up. Girls with their legs crossed, girls with their legs not crossed, girls with terrific legs, girls with lousy legs, girls that looked like swell girls, girls that looked like they'd be bitches if you knew them."
ReplyDeleteHolden is certainly interested in girls but doesn't really know what to do with them. He loves to look at them but when he approaches them he comes off slightly awkward. He thinks he's smooth. Sex seems like it's always on his mind throughout the book. It gets him into trouble, especially with Carl Luce at the bar. It comes off as immature to others, the need to talk about it that often.
I agree with Brinsley. Holden is a poser when it comes to dealing with the ladies. He doesn't exactly know what "smooth" is.
Delete“Just because somebody's dead, you don't just stop liking them" (pg 171) I think this quote shows how reluctant Holden is to forget Allie and how he doesn't like how easily other people can just move and forget people who have died. Holden really loved Allie and doesn't agree with the belief that you have to stop loving someone just because they've passed away. I agree with Holden in that you can still love someone after that person has died. Especially if that person was someone close to you like a family member or if you had a special bond with them.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Carly, that although someone has passed away, it doesn't mean your memory of them changes or disappears. I think preserving that memory is an important method of coping.
Delete"If you want to stay alive, you have to say stuff like 'Glad to have met you' when you don't really mean it"(Page 87). In this quote, Holden is discussing a common theme of the book, phoniness. Holden think that the world is full of "phonies" and he hates how insincere a lot of society is, or so who thinks. In this example, he is talking about when he met D.B.'s ex-girlfriend and her new navy boyfriend in the Wicker Bar. When they are departing from each other, they say "Glad to have met you," and Holden sees it as an obligatory saying. He obviously does not see the sincerity in this but feels it necessary to be accepted by his society anyway. To an extent I agree with this statement, but I think that it is more about being polite and that the sincerity is not as important. If you have just met someone, you probably don't know enough about them to even judge if you are glad to have met them or not. And even if you know for sure that you weren't glad to meet them, what good would it do to tell them that, or to neglect to tell them this obligatory statement? Holden doesn't like the general desire of society to be nice to each other, regardless of any other reasons Holden might have to not want it to be that way.
ReplyDeleteSame with when people say "Hi, how are you?" and the response is usually always "Good." even if it might not necessarily be true. We don't say how we really are mostly just to be polite and avoid a conversation. I think Holden thinks of this as a form a phoniness because it's lying in a way, even though he does it himself.
DeleteI think it isn't essential to be polite or sincere to survive. I think those things will make your life easier, but being rude won't kill you. You won't have friends, or anyone who will be eager to talk to you, but you will definitely continue breathing.
Delete"[about committing suicide] - I probably would've done it, too, if I'd been sure somebody'd cover up as soon as I landed. I didn't want a bunch of stupid rubbernecks looking at me when I was all gory." (Salinger 104).
ReplyDeleteTo me, this quote reveals that Holden really cares what other think of him, rather than the act of suicide itself. He doesn't want others to see him in his moment of weakness and draw conclusions about who he is. Rather than having people make negative assumptions about him, he would rather continue being miserable. I can agree with Holden on this; if the situation calls for it, I will sacrifice my mood for the sake of public image. I don't mean a situation as serious as suicide. I think people in general care a lot about what others think.
"Almost everytime someone gives me a present, it ends up making me sad." (page 52). This shows how Holden's character is not your typical teen. In the book he always refers to himself being really sad at a strange time to be sad. For example, at the end of the book he said he wanted to cry just seeing how happy Phoebe was on the carousel. I think Holden does have a big heart and does genuinly care for others but shows it in a strange way. When he finally realizes he's happy it for some reason makes him sad. A present shouldn't make you sad but Holden's character is not your average person. He has a weird way of showing his emotions. His love for his sister and the respect he has for his teacher in the beginning show that he does have compassion and he's not just a bitter man who thinks everyone in the world are 'phonies.'
ReplyDeleteThis quote was interesting to me because one would think he would be happy to get a present, but instead it shows his inner child in that he is upset because he didn't get the RIGHT present. He wants so much to be an adult, but an adult would have been polite about it, and we've already seen that Holden thinks those types of exchanges are phony.
DeleteI agree. This is a valid point, and you think that Holden coming from a well off family, that he would have a better mindset because on the outside they look like a good family. As you get to know Holden you see how pessimistic he is about everything.except the things that he holds close like Phoebe.
Delete"God, how I hate it when someone yells good luck at me when Im leaving somewhere. Its depressing." (pg 202) Its really odd that Holden finds someone telling him good luck to be depressing, when really they are just trying to wish him the best at what he is going to do. I think it could be that he feels be how he just lied to the woman and she believed every word he said.
ReplyDelete“Just because somebody's dead, you don't just stop liking them-especially if they were about a thousand times nicer than the people you know that're alive and all.” (page 171). Throughout this book, Holden does a very good job of showing the reader that he himself is not a phony. And in my opinion, I think he does that because he doesn't want the reader to realize how emotionally unstable he is because of Allie. In the novel you can tell that Holden has never been the same since Allie died. He mentions that nobody besides Allie wasn't a phony, and that just shows why he might hate the world so much. The only thing on earth he loved is dead and that's extremely sad. He loves phoebe too, but the fact that he'll never have as close of a relationship with Allie as he wanted is probably what "kills him" most. I can relate because, sometimes people are taken from us without warning or any explanation, and we get so in denial that and we don't want to accept they're gone that we may do irrational things. Holden hates everything because the one thing he loved is gone. I agree 100% because you never realize how much you care about a person until they're gone.
ReplyDeleteI would agree that I think Allie is the reason why he was so emotionally unstable. He was the only person he really truly liked besides Phoebe. I agree with the quote that you can still like someone even though they are dead.
Delete"Catholics are always trying to find out if you're Catholic," (J.D. Salinger 112). This quote comes up in the book when Holden is talking with the nuns. He was worried the whole time when we was talking to them that they were going to try and find out if he was catholic. He then talks about this boy from Whooton high school who asked him if he knew where the Catholic Church was in town. He isn't catholic and doesn't really have a religion he believes in. He says that his dad was catholic once but he quit once he married Holden's mother. I don't really agree with the statement that all Catholics try to find out if you are. I think that they're are certainly some that do but I don't agree with the statement that all Catholics try to find out if you're catholic.
ReplyDelete"In the first place, I hate actors. They never act like people. They just think they do." (pg 117) I find this quote interesting because Holden is essentially saying that actors are phony because they try to act like people, yet he's always saying people are so phony. So who is real? And in what ways are they not acting like people? It is obvious he hates the movies, but if he means the movies are phony by not being like real life but real life is phony then that means he also must hate how the "non-phony" real life must be. It's all very confusing. I definitely disagree with what he's saying. Yes, there are some really bad actors, but there are also really good ones and they aren't always cocky all the time.
ReplyDeleteGreat point Katie. Who are really, well, real?
Delete"Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you'd be so much older or anything. It wouldn't be that exactly. You'd just be different, that's all." (pg. 121)
ReplyDeleteThis was when Holden was talking about the museum, and his childhood memories associated with it. He can remember almost everything very vividly because nothing there ever moves or changes. The only things that changes are the people visiting and what's happening outside. I think this comes back to a very nostalgic Holden which we see a lot of, especially towards the end when he talks about missing all those people he hated sometimes.
I agree with him that some of our favorite places never change, and we like it that way. It gives us something to hold onto while growing up because all these things in life are changing, even you, and having a place that's been the same since your childhood can sort of be like a rock when everything is new and scary there's that place that'll always be familiar and safe.
The simplest quote that comes to mind is: "people are always ruining things for you." (page 87) Holden has a very twisted view of people. He changes his mind a lot about them, but he always comes to the same conclusion. Everyone to him is a phony. If you are nice, you are faking it, you're mean, well that's not good enough for Holden. If he met a person identical to him, he would call them one of the biggest phonies ever. Holden will never find one person besides Phoebe, and maybe Jane that live up to his standards of how people should be. I don't agree with Holden at all. If someone is negative to you, you can either sulk, and let it bother you, or shake it off and continue with your life. There will always be those people that try to get you down, but it's how you respond that changes the way you feel.
ReplyDeleteLydia Suchecki
“The best thing though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was...The only thing that would be different would be you” (p. 121).
ReplyDeleteThis quote is from when Holden is in the Museum of Natural History reminiscing about the good times he had there. This quote shows that Holden isn’t all immature, he does have intelligent thoughts. This is actually a very insightful statement. Holden is actually a pretty smart kid, he just doesn’t have the maturity to apply himself in school. Holden has to see the point in something for him to do it, and he doesn’t see the point in school so he doesn’t try. I disagree with Holden on this, but I agree with him on the quote about people changing. People never stay the same. They get smarter, wiser, older, etc.
I agree with this completely, Holden can be mature sometimes and this is a mature thought for him that people are always changing.
DeleteYou remember I said before that Ackley was a slob in his personal habits? Well, so was Stradlater, but in a different way. Stradlater was more of a secret slob. He always looked all right, Stradlater, but for instance, you should've seen the razor he shaved himself with. It was always rusty as hell and full of lather and hairs and crap. He never cleaned it or anything. He always looked good when he was finished fixing himself up, but he was a secret slob anyway, if you knew him the way I did. The reason he fixed himself up to look good was because he was madly in love with himself." (pg 27)
ReplyDeleteHolden goes on numerous amounts of rants about how much he hates phonies. He hates how everyone in the world acts so phony and even he sometimes acts like a phony. I think that is the part of him trying to act more grown up like an adult. He pretends to be grown up when he goes out drinking he likes to seem older than he really is. He lies a lot also, sometimes for no reason, just being phony. I think a lot of people in life are phony to get what they want or to make other people happy. I think in order for Holden to grow up he needs to accept that some people in life are not always going to be truthful. I agree with him that people shouldn’t be phony at all, but it’s also just a part of life we need to deal with. I think Holden is kind of being a hypocrite and also pretends to be someone else part of the time. Once he realizes that even he acts phony sometimes, I think he will get a better concept of what type of people are in the world and who he wants to be around.
I agree that Holden does not realize how much of a phony he is by his own definition. I also don't think Holden realizes that sometimes acting as something you're not isn't inherently bad.
Delete"They don't do any damn more molding at Pencey than they do at any other school. And I didn't know anybody there that was splendid and clear-thinking at all," (Salinger 2). This shows that Holden believes that no school can create a well-rounded boy with great manners. He has gone to many schools and has come to this conclusion with a lot of research and information. I believe that this is wrong, at least in this day and age. Our school for example, promotes kindness, and non-bullying policies. We do things like this to make well-rounded kids and I think, for the most part, that this policy is very efficient.
ReplyDeleteThis is such a good point. I think it is just like how Holden is very distrusting of people having good intentions, he is also distrusting of institutions like school having good intentions.
Delete"Go ahead, then-I'll be on this bench right over here. I'll watch ya." (page 211) I picked this quote because throughout the book Holden has been unsure of letting go of his childhood and venturing out into the grown up world. You can see more of who he is when he's a kid and an adult when he's with Phoebe. Example: When Holden and Phoebe first meet each other after being apart for so long when Holden gets kicked out of Pencey. Also, when Holden takes Phoebe to ride the carrousel and watches over her. Everyone goes through that phase where you want time to go slower so you can be a kid but you're also thinking that time just can't go slow enough.
ReplyDelete"Thats all I'd do all day.I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all." (pg 173)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is Holdens answer to phoebes question about what holden wants to grow up to be. I really think this quote says a lot about holden because it shows that there is more to him than he leads you to believe. It shows that he cares about people, especially kids, and wants to help them not grow up because he doesnt want them to be stuck in the situation that he is stuck in now. He is looking out for them. It connects to the thought that holden likes allie and phoebe and he thinks a lot of adults are fake. He is like peter pan and in his heart he doesnt want to grow up but his mind is saying he needs to.
(when talking about lawyers) "I mean they're all right if they go around saving innocent guy's lives all the time, and like that, but you don't do that kind of stuff if you're a lawyer. All you do is make a lot of dough and play golf and play bridge and buy cars and drink Martinis and look like a hot-shot." I think this quote reveals Holden's views on a lot of things, but I will choose to focus on being fortunate. Holden seems to have a real distaste for "fortunate" people. This is exemplified in the sentence above, or when he talks about how handsome guys are always asking you to do favors, dislikes Ernie's piano skills, or how he is upset about DB being successful in Hollywood. I do not think it's valid to dislike someone because they are successful or good looking. It is almost like he wants to be misfortunate. He shows this when he imagines getting shot, being a gas pumper, being a deafmute, saying he has a brain tumor, or imagining his own early death. This is ironic because Holden tells the story from a hospital, and has experienced the death of his brother Allie.
ReplyDeletep 172
Delete"You know that song 'If a body catch a body coming though the rye'? I'd like-" "It's 'If a body meet a body coming through the rye'!" old Phoebe said "It's a poem. By Robert Burns." ......"I thought is was 'If a body catch a body coming through the rye," Page 173
ReplyDeleteI feel that Holden really shows a softer side when he talks to his sister Phoebe about the poem and how he wants to try and keep children from growing up too fast. Phoebe doesn't seem to get this and sort of ignores his dream and concerns. He even feels like Phoebe is growing up too fast, and in the last chapter of the book he gazes at Phoebe as she rides the carousel. He says, "I felt do damn happy all of a sudden, the way Phoebe kept going around and around." Page 213
I think that at these two points in the book he finally shows a sensitive side to himself and to me becomes a likable character. Throughout the beginning of the book I didn't care for Holden at all, but after him saying he wanted to keep children from growing up too fast, it made me think to myself and say maybe there's more to Holden than he leads on.
I really liked this side of Holden because he didn't react the way he would have if Phoebe had been an unhelpful cab driver or an old, grippy teacher. You can clearly see how much he cares for his little sister and he respects her odd intelligence. He envies her youth as well.
Delete"I stood up when I ordered them so they could see how tall I was and all and not think I was a...minor." (Salinger 142).
ReplyDeleteI think its very ironic about how Holden talks about hating phonies when he pretends to be someone older than he really is the entire book. How phony is that. Pretending that you are 21 or 18 at least in order to be able to order liquor is something that is taken very seriously today. You can get in a lot of trouble with the law today for that very reason, even though the times were different then. Holden views alcohol as a sort of answer to his problems, and even as a social mechanism to communicate with people. He views alcohol as something that everyone drinks of the time, even though he is not old enough to drink it himself. Holden likes alcohol, but hates being hung over, which is also ironic because he seems to be getting plastered every night, only to forget the next day when he's drinking, that he is going to hate being hung over. I think Holden has a misunderstanding about alcohol even though he seems to be constantly drinking the entire story. He also is very proud of the fact that he can hold his alcohol. That's a very immature thing to be proud of as well. You never hear adults walking around bragging to other adults about how much alcohol they can drink without appearing drunk. He tries to personify an adult when so many things he does are illegitimate. Holden Caulfied... The true phony
"It was the phoniest conversation you ever heard in your life." (Salinger, 127)
ReplyDelete"It was one of the worst schools I ever went to. It was full of phonies." (Salinger, 167)
These are but a few of the quotes pertaining to Holden talking about phonies and phoniness. I find this topic fascinating- it kills me. It really does. Holden is always going on about how much he hates those who try to be people they're not, but is such a massive hypocrite in doing so. Throughout the book, he never ceases to find a love for the innocence and curiosity of children, wanting to protect them from the harsh adult world. And yet, all he ever does is try to act like an adult and interact with the adult world. He drinks. He smokes. He calls in up a prostitute. All these things make it all the more hypocritical to spout on and on about what big phonies everyone else is. As much disdain as he holds for them, he completely fails to see that he himself is the biggest phony in the whole book. It's simply fascinating how through and through his hatred is for those just like him.
This is very true. I didn't really realize how hypocritical Holden was being, but seeing the examples of Holden's phoniness, you can tell that he tend to complains about people that are actually just like him.
DeleteYou bring up a good point, and I agree with you. I also find it interesting that though he has been in a facility for so long, he still has his view point. He almost sees nothing wrong with himself, and continues to be in rehab. You know, he says that he's "the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life." Now, that kills me because I personally agree with him; you have to be when you lie to yourself so well for so long.
Delete"I said old Jesus probably would've puked if He could see it-all those fancy costumes and all. Sally said I'm a sac-religious atheist. I probably am. The thing Jesus REALLY would've liked would be the guy that plays the kettle drums in the orchestra." (p. 137)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is from the scene in which Holden is remembering a time when he and Sally went to a Rockettes Christmas show. Holden most likely grew up in an -if not avid church going- fairly Christian family. Holden is also a teen in an age that Christianity was endorsed in the United States. Holden himself seems unsure of his religious orientation throughout the book. I think that part of Holden's religious doubts are caused by Allie's death. Allie died when Holden was pretty young and vulnerable, so that might have caused some insecurities with Holden about religion. A main factor in Holden's views is also the fact that most of the people he knows are probably Christian, and these are all the people he considers phonies, fakes, and jerks. Holden enjoys having different opinions from the people who he looks down upon, and yet he is not sure he wants to let go of the idea of religion.
I think Holden's thought about Jesus enjoying the kettle drums is rather amusing, and I don't disagree with it. I also think Holden makes an interesting point about Jesus hating the costumes and lights and frill.
I can agree with the part where you mention how Allie' death most likely caused Holden to become an atheist. What is Holden supposed to think? I mean his brother died of a disease. Not a car crash not a murder. It was a disease that killed him which most likely would make Holden question why "God" or "Jesus" would let/make that happen.
Delete"People are always ruining things for you" (pg 45)
ReplyDeleteI think this quote strongly expresses Holden's opinion on society. Throughout the whole book, he is constantly criticizing people because he thinks they are all fake and phonies. He says this so many times in the book, so you know he has a very strong opinion about phoniness. I somewhat agree with his opinion, because I've come across some fake people in my life and have been mad at society for a number of reasons. However, I mostly disagree because he seems to have hatred for most people, and thinks they're all phony. I don't think that, I believe most people are good. He's so negative about people and society, and I don't think that's a good way to live.
"I started thinking about how old Phoebe would feel if I got pneumonia and died. It was a childish way to think, but i couldn't help myself. She'd feel pretty bad if something like that happened."pg 156
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows the close relationship between Holden and Phoebe. Phoebe is one of the only characters, besides Jane, that holden has true, loving feelings for. Phoebe is always the one that Holden wants to talk to and share his day with. If Holden didn't have Phoebe, we wouldn't see that longing of a sibling relationship in Holden. I think this is what makes Holden soft as a character because most of the time he is negative or criticizing someone/something. If Holden didn't have this type of relationship with Phoebe, I don't think I would sympathize for him as much.
I agree with this. I feel that Phoebe helps Holden to retain his innocence.
Delete"These intellectual guys [Luce] don't like to have an intellectual conversation with you unless they're running the whole thing....The thing he was afraid of, he was afraid somebody'd say something smarter than he had" (I'm sorry, I forgot the book in my locker, so I don't have the page numbers, but this quote is directly from chapter 19; honest.).
ReplyDeleteIn a way, I know where he's coming from. When you're in Luce's position, you feel in control and powerful. You have influence and you are the star of the attention show. When someone comes along and one-ups or stumps you on your so-called area of expertise, it degrades your reputation and shifts the crown somewhere else. So, to prevent that as much as much as possible, you say your piece and end it. Done; missed the train.
What I'm saying is that because I recognize this, I do agree with Holden. Maybe that's why Holden likes to lie so much; he doesn't want to hit an end. When you lie, you can make stuff up on the fly without a care for what's accurate or not, kind of like when he was talking to Ernie Morrow's mom. Going on that thread, maybe he sees adulthood as the end, the edge of that cliff, and he just wants to keep on playing in the rye field.
But that's just me. (By the way, I like your pun.)
"I hate the movies like a poison, but I get a bang imitating them." (pg. 29)
ReplyDeleteThis quote explains just how funny he finds other people. Holden may not like the way other people act, in this example, movies. However, he likes to make fun of them. It's intriguing because while Holden does not like what he sees, pretending to be them is fun. Does this show a part of Holden's hypocrisy? Maybe so. Holden is a very strong hypocrite throughout the majority of the Catcher and the Rye. He hates what others do, yet acts just like them. This quote shows a true example of it. He hates something, but loves to act like it. I feel like Holden doesn't understand at the time that he is really just lying to himself about who he truly wants to be.
Grace Bolthouse
"Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody." pg 214
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this, I noticed that Holden finally admitted that he didn't hate anything and he doesn't regret what happened that long weekend. The ridiculousness of this interesting story brought out all the parts of Holden that no one but himself, the author, and those who thoroughly read the book would be able to point out. Holden is a strange, over-whelmed boy with a lot of struggle adjusting to the fact that he is growing up. Although the quote honestly doesn't make a lot of sense, to Holden, it was everything that he needed to say in order to grasp the fact that that long weekend brought him to where he is now; basically a mental hospital. The mental break down was too much for Holden to handle and in these last two sentences, the story can be summarized. The confusion, annoyance, heart-warming moments were built up into something that probably no one needed to know. Of course, there isn't really an ending to this wonderful story. That's just my opinion though.
"I can never get really sexy-I mean really sexy-with a girl I don't like a lot." Pg. 148
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this I thought of how Holden obsesses too much about girls and sex. It's funny though because he never feels like doing anything with anybody, even he solicited a prostitute. Even girls like Jane Gallagher he wants to respect because in all honesty he really cares for those kind of girls. He's not really the one to take advantage of a girl because he really has a profound respect for them. This also displays how he's stuck in a mental struggle between adulthood and childhood in the innocence and respect he still craves contrasting with the desire and want to try new things. Like the ducks, he hasn't really figured it out yet, about whether he wants to be treated like an adult or still be considered an innocent boy. In my opinion, I don't agree what he says here because he's faltering in between those two halves of life and he's still very young. So, I think he should retain his childlike character and wait till he's older to find a girl he really likes. He needs more focus anyway, so innocence would be good for him.
"It was one of the worst schools I ever went to. It was full of phonies." (pg. 168)
ReplyDeleteThis, i believe is the single most telling line in the book. I say this because Holden is actually categorizing his past schools based on phoniness. By this you can see how much Holden obsesses over 'phonies' and the insane amount of time he spends judging people, practices, places, and events ion their phoniness. I cant say i disagree with Holden, however. From his experiences at the school, i can only say some people were acting like 'phonies.' Stradlater, for instance, was just being a guy. He wasnt acting like a phony. It was Holden, acting like a child while trying to pretend to not care whatsoever for jane gallagher that was acting like a phony. But Holden insists it was Ward who was being the phony in the situation because, really, Holden is very much still a kid with little to no perspective. The only places hes ever been a real part of have been his prep schools and i do agree with holden that those are some of the phoniest places around. All in all, i agree with Holden about 2/10 of the way on his view of phonies. As in, i agree about ernie's phoniness, but i dont agree that the actors doing a good job was a practice of phoniness.
I agree with you Maxx on how Holden is characterizing his past schools based on phonies. However, he is in fact obsessed with phonies. It seems like another ironic element of the book.
Delete"Goddam money. It always ends up making you blue as hell." (P.113)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck out to me both the first and second time I read this book. I'm not exactly sure why. Maybe because it is at the end of a chapter. Who knows. Anyway, I do agree with this quote, but not quite fully.
Holden says this because he talking about the nuns, how he donated ten dollars, and how hey had a better meal than them. Holden becomes sad because he feels like he could have done better and gave them more money.
Of course there are many different ways to look at this quote and Salinger probably did that on purpose. But I see it as Holden trying to buy things to try to cheer him up but they never help or make him feel worse. He also feels bad when he had better suitcases as his roommate. I think that he is trying to say mostly that he feels guilty for having money when others don't. I do agree with this, that is why I think a lot of famous people donate their money to charities.
I agree with you that he probably does feel bad about having more money then some people around him so he feels better about it when he gives it away like he did to the nuns.
Delete"Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody." (pg. 214)
ReplyDeleteThis is the last line in the book and I would agree with it from Holden's stand point. Every time Holden brings a character up he talks about them as if he misses them. Which I feel like he really does because at the end of the book he talks about The Elevator Operator that scammed him of 5 extra dollars and he says that he actually misses him. Which is weird because he stole his money and punched him in the gut.
I agree with the quote myself because I feel like whenever I start talking about someone that I miss them in a way too, even if I don't like them very much.
"Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody." ~J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye, Chapter 26
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Holden here. Whenever I tell stories of someone I used to know, I begin to miss them, regardless of whether I liked them or not. Holden missed Stradlater and even old Ackley. I feel like he missed them because, even though they may have treated him badly, they taught him something important about life.
“Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody.”(pg.214) You can see here that he doesn't want to get close with anybody, he doesn't want to like the fact that he actually can miss someone. You see it when he begin to think about Allie. You can tell that he use to tell him things and when he flashes back to memories he get really sad. I do agree though because i do tend to miss people that i have shared everything with. people i dont see.
ReplyDelete"In my mind, I'm probably the biggest sex maniac you ever saw." (pg 62)
ReplyDeleteTo me this quote is yet again another classic example of Holden trying to prove he is older than he really is. He tries to perceive himself as an adult instead of a teen. Although, it is ironic that he claims he is a "sex maniac" when later on in the book he has a run-in with Sunny and backs out because of his operation. I think this quote to me is more expressing the mystery, along with infatuation, he has the girls. He is still curious about them and curious about sex, as we see with him asking Stradlater about his experiences, and when he constantly sees a girl and will comment on her looks and appearance. Overall, I think he is just another curious teenage boy trying to act all macho and older than he really is.